tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post3301219806213699402..comments2023-10-18T15:59:45.874+03:00Comments on Cairo, Lusaka, Amsterdam: Islamic Culturecairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-41114150363204026772010-02-22T23:07:50.592+02:002010-02-22T23:07:50.592+02:00I agree with Candice - Muhammad was only a messeng...I agree with Candice - Muhammad was only a messenger because of God's message. When God says obey the messenger I think it means obey the message Muhammad is bringing. If God just said "obey God", well how? We relate to God and we know HOW to obey God through the Qur'an, and we know the Qur'an through the Prophet - thus we need to obey God, the message, and the messenger. <br /><br />This is different from obeying Muhammad the man, which a lot of Muslims think is necessary.cairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-55860205306504199202010-02-22T23:05:36.973+02:002010-02-22T23:05:36.973+02:00Wrestling - the question of authority in Islam is ...Wrestling - the question of authority in Islam is def very complex, and a lot of Muslims have varying answers. I personally don't think that we HAVE to follow all the sunnah. Even traditionalists that argue this don't follow all of the sunna, but are selective.cairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-86736958701226986602010-02-22T22:51:48.165+02:002010-02-22T22:51:48.165+02:00@Candice
So why doesn't it stop at "obey ...@Candice<br />So why doesn't it stop at "obey God", if it just means to obey the Quran? I could understand your argument if the messenger was the co-author of the Quran, but he's not!Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11320601087412404116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-47279531078100340312010-02-22T22:13:07.818+02:002010-02-22T22:13:07.818+02:00All these verses about obeying the messenger say j...All these verses about obeying the messenger say just that, to obey the messenger -- and not Muhammad (the man). The way I see it, the only thing that makes him a messenger is the message itself. So it's another way of saying to obey God by obeying what is said in his revelation.Candicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15769515811889621243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-17608190284767958752010-02-22T11:48:14.351+02:002010-02-22T11:48:14.351+02:00Thanks Aynur! Will check that out.
I don't re...Thanks Aynur! Will check that out.<br /><br />I don't really see how obeying the Quran means obeying Muhammad, if the Quran is only from God. Maybe the verses meant to obey his instructions as leader of the ummah?Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11320601087412404116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-32969335300456772612010-02-22T08:39:49.875+02:002010-02-22T08:39:49.875+02:00Wrestling - check out 'Hadith as Scripture: Di...Wrestling - check out 'Hadith as Scripture: Discussions on the Authority of Prophetic Traditions in Islam' by Aisha Musa. This book also includes a translation of Shafi's 'Kitab Jima' al-'Ilm'. Even though the book is short (like 220ish pages I believe), it explains how the hadiths went from attributed sayings of the Prophet (saw) to being thought of as part of revelation. <br /><br />"100% word of Allah and not from Muhammad, then where does the obeying Muhammad part come in?"<br /><br />Well of course God doesn't speak to us directly (normal people), so the prophets were crucial for that aspect. ;) In obeying Prophet Muhammad (saw) we would be obeying God. Through the sunnah? Maybe ... but most likely the Qur'an.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-26911738366051639772010-02-20T19:41:12.835+02:002010-02-20T19:41:12.835+02:00Interesting discussion!
Aynur, you mentioned some...Interesting discussion!<br /><br />Aynur, you mentioned something about Shafi and the doctrine of dual revelation - I'd love to hear more about that?<br /><br />I'm still very unsure about where the authority in Islam originally came from - just the Quran, or the Sunnah too, and if the sunnah then in what way.<br /><br />I have no doubt that the early Muslims did take authority from the teaching of Muhammad - that is where most of the laws and rituals come from. Also the Quran does put Muhammad side by side with Allah at least linguistically by saying in many places that believers have to obey "Allah and the Messenger" - and if the Quran is the 100% word of Allah and not from Muhammad, then where does the obeying Muhammad part come in? Through the sunnah would be the obvious answer.<br /><br />But was it always intended that the sunnah should be immortalised and followed to the letter by all believers in all times and settings? I don't know. And I don't see how anyone could prove it.<br /><br />And the problem is, as Aynur showed with the hadiths about prayer, they are full of contradictions. Fiqh gives the impression everything is clear-cut but the reality, if you actually look at the hadiths, is that they are all over the place!<br /><br />Now, either this means there were errors in the transmission, or that there was actually no consistent set of practices at the time (in things like when to make wudu, as in the example). Or both.<br /><br />The second of these possibilities is perhaps the more disturbing one for traditionalists, but it lends weight to the non-traditionalist argument that sunnah is not divinely inspired and therefore "optional".<br /><br />As an outsider to the religion I can go even further. I can entertain the possibility that Muhammad did predict the future even if the Quran says he can't - because I don't have to believe in the kind of consistency and inerrancy that is <i>assumed</i> when you are coming at this from a position of faith. Just couldn't help putting that out there. :)<br /><br />Re music, I remember when I looked it up there were hadiths that described Muhammad bringing singers in to entertain Aisha, letting her watch a group of dancers performing, requesting singers for an Ansar wedding, letting the Ansar play the daff and sing, and so on. So the traditionalist position is that only the voice and the daff are acceptable... presumably because of that other hadith that forbids musical instruments. But that is a contradiction, like it or not. Daff and voice are musical instruments. Oh, and the Quran talks about a trumpet blast being sounded at the end of the world, presumably blown by an angel... how do you explain that if trumpets are haram?!<br /><br />I have to laugh at the sweeping generalisations about the content of music. It's like saying, "the majority of books are bad". Who has even READ the majority of books?!Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11320601087412404116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-59077812199167807622010-02-19T16:20:32.827+02:002010-02-19T16:20:32.827+02:00Hi Cairo(:
Where I'm from, I belong to a race...Hi Cairo(:<br /><br />Where I'm from, I belong to a race predominantly Muslim. Yet we are not performing acadmically as well as the other races. We seem to lag behind by a good mile or so. If I had to rank races in my society, mine would be at the bottom.<br /><br />Why then is the situation as such? Like you said, Muslims were at the forefront... So why is my race right down below? <br /><br />If religion is to be partly a reason, then perhaps it could come from the fact that Muslims tend to be more thankful of what they already possess. I'm happy to know that Ive done my best and got that B- whereas others arent happy that they did their best and only managed an A-.<br /><br />Could we have taken the foot of the pedal as soon as "there was no more for us to discover, and with the loss of of inspiration came the loss of hope and we started going astray (Fatima)"? <br /><br />Our hunger for success is too easily satisfied. Good or bad, I don't really know. May the turn for Muslims to rise once more come soon.marzukihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05992749943748434474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-39634741845947116482010-02-19T10:51:53.556+02:002010-02-19T10:51:53.556+02:00Sometimes I wish I could change things or at least...Sometimes I wish I could change things or at least try to..Sarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04656558334718631275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-55856910920098451412010-02-19T03:49:43.658+02:002010-02-19T03:49:43.658+02:00cairo - yeah you're right ... but I don't ...cairo - yeah you're right ... but I don't understand how it's still held to be true (that he supposedly could tell the future), if the Qur'an says he couldn't. I thought that if things in the hadith collection were contradicting the Qur'an, then they were supposed to be ignored/thrown out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-90329065213159271852010-02-18T23:03:53.082+02:002010-02-18T23:03:53.082+02:00Fatima: welcome to the blog :) And can I just say ...Fatima: welcome to the blog :) And can I just say I love your pic...cupcakes...yummy :D <br /><br />That exhibition sounds amazing, I'd love to see it one day i'A. And you're right, Muslims really were at the forefront at some point :( i'A it will happen again.cairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-18019536183221038602010-02-18T23:02:41.264+02:002010-02-18T23:02:41.264+02:00Aynur: very interesting! If the Qur'an says th...Aynur: very interesting! If the Qur'an says that the Prophet does not know the future, then many other hadith are also false, since he predicts the future in quite a few of them.<br />Thanks for the info!cairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-33118039611791090862010-02-18T23:01:16.183+02:002010-02-18T23:01:16.183+02:00Mezba: exactly! And we need to realize that! By no...Mezba: exactly! And we need to realize that! By not questioning we are only entrenching existing (exploitative) power structures.cairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-76929442750869141682010-02-18T23:00:36.232+02:002010-02-18T23:00:36.232+02:00Mrs. S: thank you (blush) would love to hear your ...Mrs. S: thank you (blush) would love to hear your thoughts!cairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-27157622457370704942010-02-18T23:00:13.609+02:002010-02-18T23:00:13.609+02:00Sara: I feel that there are much worse things out ...Sara: I feel that there are much worse things out there other than music, but scholars always choose to focus on it instead of domestic violence, animal abuse, intolerance, hate speech, etc. Many Muslims are anti-Jews, for example, yet we don't see any fatwas against that even though as an ummah we could do better with anti-Semitism. <br />Interesting isn't it.cairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-38503499959801686952010-02-18T22:58:36.102+02:002010-02-18T22:58:36.102+02:00Umm Omar: so glad you're back to the blogging ...Umm Omar: so glad you're back to the blogging world :D<br />I definitely think there is a correlation between tolerance and success.cairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-58781520117252180852010-02-18T22:27:32.781+02:002010-02-18T22:27:32.781+02:00"...Such days (of varying fortunes) We give t..."...Such days (of varying fortunes) We give to men and men by turns" Surah 003:140 - Ali 'Imran.<br /><br />Islam was once the "hip" thing to belong to in the world, even the west copied our fashions back then (cool, huh?!) Islam was on such varying levels of greatness (they even have an exhibition about this here in London at the science museum: http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/visitmuseum/galleries/1001_inventions.aspx), but then there was no more for us to discover, and with the loss of of inspiration came the loss of hope and we started going astray. And so the story continues, and we come to the present day scenario where the west is the leading force of power, however, and like the ayah above states, the day will come round again when Islam will prevail inshAllah and hope along with inspiration will be victorious. <br />Remember this quote though, it's one hell of a driving force:<br />"be the change that you want to see in the world" because we can all sit around waiting for change to happen but unless we get a move on ourselves, then no change will come about. Great blog btw, keep up the great posts!LShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13542338195315114763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-46364105798131452902010-02-18T10:07:55.755+02:002010-02-18T10:07:55.755+02:00cairo - well there are a few different hadiths reg...cairo - well there are a few different hadiths regarding music. <br />The thing is, music is not explicitly banned in the Qur'an, like alcohol and pork are. Some say that the verse about 'idle talk' refers to music. The hadith about silk, alcohol and musical instruments is considered weak because the chain of narrators is broken. (this is the hadith I'm referring to: "From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful.")<br /><br />There is this famous hadith: <br />""The Prophet SAWS said, "There will be (at some future time) people from my<br />ummah (community of Muslims) who will seek to make lawful: fornication, the<br />wearing of silk by men), wine-drinking, and the use of musical<br />instruments(ma'azif). Some people will stay at the side of a mountain and<br />when their shepherd comes in the evening to ask them for his needs, they will<br />say, 'return to us tomorrow.' Then Allah will destroy them during the night<br />by causing the mountain to fall on them, while he changes others into apes and<br />swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of<br />Resurrection.(related by Imam Al-Bukhari in Fat-hul Baari, graded sahih)"<br /><br />The problem is the according to the Qur'an (see 7:188,46:9, among others), Prophet Muhammad didn't know the future. Also, even if one doesn't believe that - then there has been so much time since Prophet Muhammad (saw) has died and I haven't heard of anyone having mountains falling on them or turning into monkeys or pigs. Maybe it's happened, but I haven't heard of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-14245553674548848132010-02-16T22:26:06.782+02:002010-02-16T22:26:06.782+02:00you have identified the problem when you said &quo...you have identified the problem when you said "following the ulama blindly and accepting anything without thinking. There is no debate. There is no freedom of expression." <br /><br />it suits a lot of powers for it to be so.mezbahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16450639860657867772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-50983643279500645682010-02-16T20:41:12.491+02:002010-02-16T20:41:12.491+02:00What a great post. I have so many thoughts going a...What a great post. I have so many thoughts going around in my head right now...too many to organize into words. I just want to say thanks for making me think!Mrs. Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05437414264903251142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-43984183850225372482010-02-16T11:22:13.754+02:002010-02-16T11:22:13.754+02:00For me, I remember a hadith about the Prophet PBUH...For me, I remember a hadith about the Prophet PBUH saying "if ever in doubt of something, leave it." Personally I dont see how music has a positive effect. I just look at the singers and the way they behave and I know why music is bad. Now you will probably tell me that not all music is bad but unfortunatley the majority of it is and what it leads to is bad. Think of how many bad messages are sent through music. Almost every song now has a message and most of the time its not positive or beneficial. Im not a scholar but why listen to music when i can listen to the Quran?... <br /><br />Muslims can go very far as an ummah without music. I feel that painting is alright as long as your not painting a human beings. But again if its haram then im sure theres an explanation.Muslimah for Jannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08195696882589283492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-4113844813145880712010-02-16T04:55:11.018+02:002010-02-16T04:55:11.018+02:00Very interesting. How true that we as an ummah wer...Very interesting. How true that we as an ummah were at our height when we were tolerant, grateful, cultured, and reflective. Another great post to reflect on. Thank you!Umm Omarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07996465903431750823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-61946673282658944182010-02-15T22:07:31.821+02:002010-02-15T22:07:31.821+02:00Sarah Elizabeth: I think the shift towards literal...Sarah Elizabeth: I think the shift towards literalism has definitely played a role in the downfall of the Islamic empire. Which is why I don't see Muslims getting themselves into a better position anytime soon :Scairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-28778514493398251642010-02-15T22:06:03.212+02:002010-02-15T22:06:03.212+02:00Sara - music is definitely not always bad for peop...Sara - music is definitely not always bad for people. I would argue the exact opposite.<br /><br />"and i dont have much knowledge for painting and poetry but im sure that theres something to it."<br /><br />Why do you think that these are bad things? Poetry and painting are two beautiful forms of art, why would we not be allowed to enjoy them?cairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7573368687554384299.post-51935119101981296352010-02-15T22:04:43.900+02:002010-02-15T22:04:43.900+02:00Aynur - the hadith, yet again. I'm interested ...Aynur - the hadith, yet again. I'm interested in finding out the hadith about music...do you know it? Is it a strong one?cairo, lusaka, amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04955671720625835663noreply@blogger.com